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Old 01-29-2009, 02:23 PM View Post #11 (Link)
nagarjuna (Offline)
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I think that, like in the case of alcoholism, people's choices can be greatly affected by their genes. But as far as genes are concerned, they do not unconditionally force someone to adopt one way of life over another.
The difference is that homosexuality is a sexual orientation, and not a behavior. You can be homosexual and live a straight lifestyle, and vice versa.

There are genes which may make people much more prone to drink alcohol to excess, but there are plenty of stories of people whose will have overridden it. Likewise, I read stories about ex-gays (and vice-versa), and how they changed their lives.
They changed their behaviors, but it is very questionable whether they were actually changed into "heterosexuals." Back in the day, when being left-handed was considered morally reprehensible, left-handed people were forced to write with their right hands. But I don't think anyone today would think of them as "ex-left-handed," because, of course, handedness is a biological trait.
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Old 01-29-2009, 06:02 PM View Post #12 (Link)
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I think that, like in the case of alcoholism, people's choices can be greatly affected by their genes. But as far as genes are concerned, they do not unconditionally force someone to adopt one way of life over another.

There are genes which may make people much more prone to drink alcohol to excess, but there are plenty of stories of people whose will have overridden it. Likewise, I read stories about ex-gays (and vice-versa), and how they changed their lives.
No, but to compare it to alcoholism is to make the connecting between homosexuality and a disease. There's a massive difference between being gay and drinking excessive amounts of alcohol.

And it should be noted that the people you are talking of who become ex-gays: the suicide rate of people who go through the processes to do such things is astronomically high. The reason is that they become involved in programs that tell them they are abominations because they like the same sex (usually from a religious standpoint) and inevitably they can't take it. The number of people who back out of this "change" is also high. Some people can be changed, but I think we have to be extremely careful with pushing for this. If someone is gay, so be it. If that makes them happy, then it shouldn't be any of our business and we shouldn't impose laws that prevent them from acting out who they are.
This is another problem I have with many religious groups who create these support organizations under the guise of helping, when what they often are doing is contributing to the psychological damage already inflicted upon homosexuals by society.
Granted, not all people who say they are gay are actually gay. I suspect there are many who are simply acting that way to become accepted or some such. I've known folks who pretended to be gay and I think that's more a disservice to people who honestly are not attracted to women than anything else.
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:53 PM View Post #13 (Link)
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Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
No, but to compare it to alcoholism is to make the connecting between homosexuality and a disease. There's a massive difference between being gay and drinking excessive amounts of alcohol.
Of course that's beside the point, as the influence was my point.

Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
And it should be noted that the people you are talking of who become ex-gays: the suicide rate of people who go through the processes to do such things is astronomically high. The reason is that they become involved in programs that tell them they are abominations because they like the same sex (usually from a religious standpoint) and inevitably they can't take it.
Oh, that's so typical of you. Seems the problem here are the program's tactics, not the actual decision change.

I'd say more, but I've never seen Shaun back down from a debate. Ever. Except when bribery was involved.
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:21 PM View Post #14 (Link)
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Oh, that's so typical of you. Seems the problem here are the program's tactics, not the actual decision change.

I'd say more, but I've never seen Shaun back down from a debate. Ever. Except when bribery was involved.
Yes, the problem is the tactics. For someone that is already frakking confused, depressed, lost, and generally terrified of how their family, friends, and the world will perceive them, to be told by people they trust to make good decisions that what feels natural to them is nothing more than a disease (not talking alcoholism, but turn-you-straight programs) is psychologically damaging. That's why there is a high level of suicides amongst those who make the choice to try to change. They feel hopeless, because for people who are truly and honestly homosexual, changing them to be straight doesn't work. That pressure and the realization that no matter what they do, they will have those urges is enough to make them willing to kill themselves to end the torment of being an abomination.
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:53 AM View Post #15 (Link)
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Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
Yes, the problem is the tactics. For someone that is already frakking confused, depressed, lost, and generally terrified of how their family, friends, and the world will perceive them, to be told by people they trust to make good decisions that what feels natural to them is nothing more than a disease (not talking alcoholism, but turn-you-straight programs) is psychologically damaging. That's why there is a high level of suicides amongst those who make the choice to try to change. They feel hopeless, because for people who are truly and honestly homosexual, changing them to be straight doesn't work. That pressure and the realization that no matter what they do, they will have those urges is enough to make them willing to kill themselves to end the torment of being an abomination.
All very interesting. But unrelated to the question at hand.
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:16 PM View Post #16 (Link)
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Originally Posted by nagarjuna View Post
All very interesting. But unrelated to the question at hand.
I know. I was responding to Andy. I already answered the question at hand .
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--And don't forget to buy something from YWO's Zazzle Store!
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