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Old 01-17-2009, 11:11 AM View Post #21 (Link)
Shaun (Offline)
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Originally Posted by Rafael Domination View Post
So you're saying Israel was right for waging war and causing the strife because they should stop believing in 'bullcrap' and take matters into their own hands?
No. If none of these people, Israeli Jews or Arabic Muslims, believed in the crap they believe in, then none of us would even be discussing this right now because it wouldn't be happening. There would be no Holy Land to bicker over.

And you're mistaken if you think God's will is 'bullcrap'. Often a lot of people do unspeakable acts of horrors because they either twist it to their own greed or ignore it altogether. You're very mistaken if you're calling me clouded for believing in such a thing. And you're seriously mistaken if you think humans, of all creatures, can make things better on their own for this world. It might be remotely possible, and it may happen in bits. But on a whole, our species ain't so perfect. It's easy for you to sit there and call down some revival asking for humans to 'start doing things for the good'. We had thousands of years to try, yet here we are. Still squabbling like animals. Heck, animals don't fly planes into skyscrapers. You call my faith in God misplaced? Well here's news for you: your faith in humans - misplaced by miles, due to 6 billion bodies of hate, disregard and selfishness.
Those thousands of years were years clouded by religion, not by our own wills. Those years were years of God or gods. We have yet to truly take matters into our own hands, but if you look at nations that are starting to do just that, shedding their religious coats, dropping their reliance on fantasies and nonsense, they become better nations, better peoples. The longer we stay chained to these sorts of ideas, the longer we prevent ourselves from becoming something better. Because right now we're not improving. Religion is clouding us, tearing us apart, piece by piece, nation by nation. The religious fly planes into skyscrapers. The religious cause Holy Wars, crusades. Without religion, this world would be a much better place, because so much of our hatreds and wars would never have happened. There would never have been Stalin's Purges or Hitlers Holocaust/WW2. There would not have been the dozen or so crusades and the dozens of other useless wars in the name of God. We wouldn't be denouncing science because a book written by people, full of stories stolen from other religions that we now laugh at, tells us that a magic being poofed us into existence and told us to do a lot of stuff.

My faith in humans is only misplaced because humans still cling to ancient, antiquated nonsense. When we are able to shed these things and become logical beings, then we will be better.

Now, if you even took the time to analyze my point, you would have understood that IF the Israelites had placed their faith in God's promise, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE WAGED A WAR TO RECLAIM THEIR LANDS IN THE FIRST PLACE and allowed God to work in due time. They would have waited. No one would have died. Do you think that course of action is worse than obliterating a few thousand lives? It would be a testament to stupidity, and I for one believe that a man of logic such as yourself wouldn't do so, if you chose the Israelites killing for their land over them waiting for it.
Jews don't believe in the New Testament. So, technically speaking, they are doing what God promised them in the manner that they believe is proper. You can sit here and say that this isn't the Old Testament anymore, but that's because YOU believe in the New Testament. They don't. They do not believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God and savior of mankind, etc. They believe things that are entirely contrary to what you believe in. This is not a nation of Christians, but a nation of radical Jews, two entirely different things.

And quite honestly, the Jews have been waiting. And you know what that earned them? A thousand years of torture, enslavement, and genocide by other religious people. Jews would likely have been wiped off the face of the Earth if they had just sat down and taken it.

As a man of logic, however, I think it's all nonsense, because if they didn't believe in the nonsense they believe in and the Muslims there didn't either, there wouldn't be any disagreement on the matter and nobody would be calling for the erradication of the other. There would be no Jews, no Muslims, no Christians, no nothing, no Holy Land. Only people.
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Old 01-17-2009, 02:22 PM View Post #22 (Link)
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No.
I'm relived.

Without religion, this world would be a much better place, because so much of our hatreds and wars would never have happened.
Umm...no. If people listened to 'thou shalt not kill', 'thou shalt not steal', 'thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself' and etc, the world would be a better place. You think Stalin did things in the name of religion? Nope. I'm not saying the Crusades weren't wrong. Heck, if I was God, I would have made those so called 'christians' lose the war. Raping muslims ain't the way to reclaim the Holy Land, y'know. Forget the cults and bloody warmongers masking themselves as religious figures. If people, oh big surprise here, did not twist religion to their own lusts or actually listened to what it was saying, a lot of stuff would have never happened. Now, you can pin accusations of such on others, but before you pin anything on true Christianity remember this: the Bible said itself: 'pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world'. I seriously doubt anyone living by that would cremate millions of people in giant ovens. Religion doesn't start wars. People start wars.

When we are able to shed these things and become logical beings, then we will be better.
When. Sounds nice. Unfortunately, we're both at a dead end here. The things in everyone will not listen to what God really wants (see above) and not everyone will simply 'shed' those things and become logical beings. It's in out DNA to behave like filth, regardless of religion or non-religion. There are a lot of atheist people out there. Do you think their murder statistics are lower than those who believe in 'thou shalt not kill?'. It's easy for both of us to say 'when' and 'if' this should happen. But the fact remains that out species is doomed to bash on itself, brother against brother.

This is not a nation of Christians, but a nation of radical Jews, two entirely different things.
Ah, so we do agree: they're not Christians. They believe they have the right to kill. I believe no one has the right to kill.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:53 PM View Post #23 (Link)
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Originally Posted by eriko View Post
I really don't think we should be insensitive towards the genocide after all grudges are deep-seated and have long history. And as for Jews being safe in Canada. Then I suppose they are only safe in Canada, U.S and some european countries. But this states don't account for the whole of the world.
Whose being insensitive? I'm very sorry that the genocide took place, I don't think anyone's happy about it, but the fact that it happened doesn't give anyone the right to kill others too.
So Jews aren't safe everywhere and that gives them the right to kill others and make their own land? Well guess what? Jews were safe in Palestine. Palestine WAS a peaceful land where Christians and Jews AND Muslims lived together. But yes, Jews were a minority. That didn't make them unsafe, it just made them a minority. But the creators of Israel were powerhungry and they weren;t happy being just a safe minority, they had to kill and take power. And that's just sick.


I have stated clearly that I condemn Israel actions. They are unjust and inhumane.
They ARE unjust and inhumane. They should be stopped. That's all that matters at this point.


When the U.N has no control and nobody likes the U.S to intervene what do you really think you can do? In my opinion I can just sit and see what's happening as an outsider.
And that's the mentality that's letting Israel get away with this. Of course there's more to do than just sit there, there always is. We can boycott Israeli products or brands that sponsor Israel so that they can't have all the military and weapons they have today. We can start protets. Want to go smaller? We can start educating our friends so that they know that this is unjust and they think about it and they spread the world. When the U.N sees that a majority of people REALLY care they will step up their work, they will do more.

Maybe the Israelies are doing the bad thing and fuelling the war. But when both the sides are just as bad and just as good as each other and you know that the other side would have done the same thing if their places switched, I don't think any action can take place.
That's just it, the sides aren't just as bad as each other. One is worst.
And actions can be taken AND should be taken. We don't live in a goddamn bubble, we need to see the rest of the world and help the victims as best as we can.


Originally Posted by Rafael Domination View Post
And you're seriously mistaken if you think humans, of all creatures, can make things better on their own for this world.
Really? SO we can't make things better? Then what's your plan Raff? Let's sit here and wait for God to rescue the poor palestinians? Or let's wait until God tell us to take action?
May God be real or not (though I believe his does exist), the God I belive in would not approve of humans sitting down and watching such horrors take place without stepping in.

Now, if you even took the time to analyze my point, you would have understood that IF the Israelites had placed their faith in God's promise, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE WAGED A WAR TO RECLAIM THEIR LANDS IN THE FIRST PLACE and allowed God to work in due time. They would have waited. No one would have died.
Yes, IF. But that's not what they did. They wouldn't have claimed the land lF they didn't believe in the holy land either or God or religion. But there's little point to discussing IFs and COULD HAVES right now. We need a solution, we need to help the hundreds dying everyday.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:58 PM View Post #24 (Link)
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the God I belive in would not approve of humans sitting down and watching such horrors take place without stepping in.
Agreed. You're mistaken if the solution I was suggesting was to sit down and do nothing. I only stated my stance/opinion on the topic. I did not suggest a course of action because I feel I am incapable of doing so, and if I did, it might make things worse. I do take comfort, however, in that we both agree on one thing: war in real life sucks. Except in movies. That's fake.
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:01 PM View Post #25 (Link)
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My mistake then. What does this mean then, though?
And you're seriously mistaken if you think humans, of all creatures, can make things better on their own for this world.
Sorry for jumping to conclusions.
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:06 PM View Post #26 (Link)
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That means that on their own, on average, humans are quite nasty as a species. When I meant 'world' I meant generally. As in, we are incapable of stopping ourselves, for the most part, from warring, stealing, hating each other in some way or form. I did NOT say, however, that humans aren't capable of doing good. Just by bringing this topic to light, Nyx, you've done a considerable amount of good by making us aware. That kind of 'good' exists, and we should try to do good. However, what I meant was that as a species, most humans just WON'T do good. What's worse that some of the 'good' we do, is actually quite evil, or people twist the good into evil.

Sorry if I had sounded like some nihilistic bastard. That's not what I meant.
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:15 PM View Post #27 (Link)
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Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
And that's the mentality that's letting Israel get away with this. Of course there's more to do than just sit there, there always is. We can boycott Israeli products or brands that sponsor Israel so that they can't have all the military and weapons they have today.
Nyx, you are about as naive as they come. Boycotting brands and products? Do you know where Israel gets a huge amount of the money it needs to fight these wars? Hint: It doesn't do anything to earn it, but there's a country out there called the US that donates $3 billion dollars a year to fund Israeli weapons and military activity. And you are not going to change this.

We can start protets. Want to go smaller? We can start educating our friends so that they know that this is unjust and they think about it and they spread the world.
No, that's completely unfeasible, considering that all public schools (where the majority of people go) are controlled by the government, which is itself controlled by AIPAC and the like. They won't allow large-scale anti-Israeli protests.

Oh, and don't think you can broadcast your message through the news either. Because all major news outlets happen to be controlled by people who are very supportive of Israel's decisions.

When the U.N sees that a majority of people REALLY care they will step up their work, they will do more.
HA HA HA HA HA.
 
Old 01-17-2009, 05:21 PM View Post #28 (Link)
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Ah, the UN. In Socials class, you have teachers raving about how the UN is US controlled. She would launch into these massive speeches about how the UN does absolutely nothing all the time. As to whether I agree or not, I will keep to myself. But I will say that such a powerful force has to act soon to prevent more horrors of war, because shame on the UN is they can't contain so small a conflict (small in size of geography, not hatred, mind you).
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Old 01-17-2009, 08:45 PM View Post #29 (Link)
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Originally Posted by Diocletian View Post
Nyx, you are about as naive as they come.
Maybe (though I don't agree) But you're as pessimistic as they come. I'd rather be naive, atleast I'm trying to be humane.

Boycotting brands and products? Do you know where Israel gets a huge amount of the money it needs to fight these wars? Hint: It doesn't do anything to earn it, but there's a country out there called the US that donates $3 billion dollars a year to fund Israeli weapons and military activity. And you are not going to change this.
I know that the US gives huge amounts of money to Israel but that's not where ALL their money comes from. If people see what's WRONG here, then mabe the US will have to backout. Maybe it won't. If brands stop donating to Israel because they're losing sales and getting bad publicity, maybe Israel will become just a bit weaker. Maybe they won't. But it's a definite won't if no one tries. Atleast there's a chance of getting somewhere if people try.

No, that's completely unfeasible, considering that all public schools (where the majority of people go) are controlled by the government, which is itself controlled by AIPAC and the like. They won't allow large-scale anti-Israeli protests.
If the protests are large enough, maybe the won't be able to stop it. Even if they do, stopping something like that would take press. Not all news outlets can ignore it.

Oh, and don't think you can broadcast your message through the news either. Because all major news outlets happen to be controlled by people who are very supportive of Israel's decisions.
I know that. That's why I started this thread. If people aren't going to hear anything but propaganda then they should hear the truth somewhere.
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Old 01-17-2009, 11:59 PM View Post #30 (Link)
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Whatever I wanted to state Nyx, Dio has alredy stated. But let me add my account as well.

India has very good relations with Isreal. Do you really think the Indian goverment will legalise any protest against her? I think not.

Then comes educating my friends about it. Their reply: come on Eriko are crazy what good will you have in doing and saying anything? And besides you can't really do anything about it except debating and sulking.

Most of the people in India take Isreael in good light. This cannot be changed just by debating and trying to convince them at all.

And I again state my point that we are totally incapable of doing anything except critizing this. And everyone knows why because most of the powerful governments in the world support Isreal somehow or the other.

And all that crap about religion and all i don't beleive in it. Everybody knows that a Modern Jew will do anything to have what he thinks he has the right to. To Nyx: But sorry I can't buy your point that one side is worst. Maybe because of the present sitution it seems like it. But nevertheless I am not defending Isreal by stating the above. And I am repeating this again and again.

And about the genocide thing. What I meant by that was thay have hatred filled in them and they won't listen to anyone. This was not to justify their actions. You are just taking my words in a very wrong way Nyx. The question is: How do you think you can convince these people to stop.

I again condemn war and Isreal's actions.

But how do you know all this is true Nyx:
That didn't make them unsafe, it just made them a minority. But the creators of Israel were powerhungry and they weren;t happy being just a safe minority, they had to kill and take power. And that's just sick.
The majority could have been oppresive just like in case of Sri Lanka.

And again I condemn war and Isreal's actions.
 
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