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Old 10-02-2015, 05:02 PM View Post #21 (Link)
2sh4r (Offline)
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To examine what makes an image beautiful we've got to examine what makes an image. Hold that thought.
Thought being held.
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:16 PM View Post #22 (Link)
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Originally Posted by 2sh4r View Post
Okay, yeah, I think I can agree with this, but then we, as poets, must also strive to see (or be prone to seeing) beautiful thing at times. I don't think it's enough to just express the idiosyncrasies within us. Beauty is, of course, very subjective. I'm just acting out against Carson's ideas that art is nothing more than a mode of expression of self.
Yes, we want to be prone to seeing beauty, we want to cultivate that sense. I agree.

Can you state what you do think art is? What would you put against Carson? I've taken for granted that art is a mode of expression of self.
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:26 PM View Post #23 (Link)
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Can you state what you do think art is?
I don't know. Something beautiful. Something moving. At the moment, I don't know enough to be more specific than that. My theory isn't as developed as I'd like.

What would you put against Carson? I've taken for granted that art is a mode of expression of self.
In Autobiography of Red, Carson tried to show that there was something innately beautiful about the expression of the self and overcoming solipsism. And I disagree. If Carson is to be believed, the greatest moments of art occurred when the artist succeeded in distilling their soul and expressing it perfectly. I don't think the production of art is anything so romantic as that.

I think its more reader-oriented.
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:27 PM View Post #24 (Link)
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But then again... in order to convey the soul perfectly, you have to be pretty reader-oriented.

But still... I feel like there is some other factor than just self-expression. Perhaps some aesthetic principle?
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:31 PM View Post #25 (Link)
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I think what Carson is saying is that self-expression and aesthetic principle are intertwined, almost circular - that in order to express well you must have some sense of aesthetics, and in order to be aesthetic, you must express well.

I think that they're separate, but I don't know.
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:39 PM View Post #26 (Link)
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I'm enjoying watching your thoughts develop here.

Personally, I'm really interested in analysis of people. I just like people complete-- the "whole person". And conveying that whole may be the most beautiful/aesthetic thing to me.

In Autobiography of Red, Carson tried to show that there was something innately beautiful about the expression of the self and overcoming solipsism. And I disagree. If Carson is to be believed, the greatest moments of art occurred when the artist succeeded in distilling their soul and expressing it perfectly. I don't think the production of art is anything so romantic as that.

I think its more reader-oriented.
I agree with her. Not that it's not reader-oriented (you realized that yourself)-- writing in a vacuum, writing without an audience, doesn't reach this point of expression. The greatest moment of art occurred when the connection between the reader and writer was made real-- the writer distilled their experience, expressed it perfectly, and the reader accepted and experienced that. Which doesn't happen without a reader to receive. But the connection there is, I think, the moment I'm looking for.

I think what Carson is saying is that self-expression and aesthetic principle are intertwined, almost circular - that in order to express well you must have some sense of aesthetics, and in order to be aesthetic, you must express well.
I don't think that you have to express well to comprehend beauty, or that you have to know everything about beauty before you can express it. I do think that there's aesthetic beauty outside of the human, though we can only understand that through human perception, of course. But I don't think that this contradicts what Carson is saying. You want to give beauty to someone, and I think that that giving is a giving of your perception of beauty as well as of the beauty itself.
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:51 PM View Post #27 (Link)
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I guess something within me doesn't like the strong focus on self. I'm realizing now that its not just a focus on self. It's also a just-as-important focus on reader.

What would a piece look like that was entirely reader-oriented? How would that even work?
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:59 PM View Post #28 (Link)
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Focus on self would ignore imagery entirely-- because when I say "I see a lake," I know what I see, and don't need to describe it. When I describe it, that's for the benefit of the reader. I'm trying to put myself in the reader's place and figure out what they need in order to see it the same way.

But as for what's entirely focused on the reader, I don't know. Is it possible? The writer is the one whose perceptions are going on paper, so s/he's got to be in there somewhere.
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Old 10-02-2015, 06:11 PM View Post #29 (Link)
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Focus on self would ignore imagery entirely-- because when I say "I see a lake," I know what I see, and don't need to describe it. When I describe it, that's for the benefit of the reader. I'm trying to put myself in the reader's place and figure out what they need in order to see it the same way.
Do you need to see a lake in order to be able to describe it? Yes. This gets back to the initial point about imagery. Art has to be expressive. If somebody comes to me and tells me, "write a description of a lake for me". I would have to picture a lake, hold that image in my head, and describe that image so that the reader would then see that image. But the way Carson described it, it sounded like it had something to do with the author's personality as well.

It would be impossible, I think, to see inside the mind of a reader and then give them the lake that they wanted to see. I think it would be redundant too.
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Old 10-02-2015, 06:17 PM View Post #30 (Link)
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I do think that there's aesthetic beauty outside of the human, though we can only understand that through human perception, of course.
I also disagree with this in the sense that the idea of beauty is invented by the human, but this is more of a philosophical point. This is like "if there's a beautiful painting in a room where nobody can see it, is it still beautiful?"
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