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Old 04-20-2016, 12:53 AM View Post #1 (Link) Why do so many hate the police when things like the following happen???
MYAnna_M (Offline)
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There was a shooting of a SWAT officer over in Ohio who was a good friend of my father. The SWAT team was carrying out a warrant about a man who was going to set his wife’s house on fire or some psycho thing that could really endanger some people. SWAT has to carry out all the warrants on insane people making crazy threats that could seriously harm the community. My dad, a SWAT member on another unit, said it bothers him sometimes that he almost has to babysit these unstable people because they never know if they’ll really carry out these threats.

Anyways, the officer had gone up the ladder on the roof hatch of the SWAT vehicle to see what was going on in the house, when the psycho, sick person who had been watching from a window shot him and the bullet smashed itself in the officer’s brain, plunging the officer into instant critical condition and his brain just died since it shot straight through his brain. They kept his body alive somehow, though, and he was brain dead so he wasn’t suffering or anything, to harvest his eight organs so eight people will get a chance at life again.

The officer, SWAT Officer Steven M. Smith, was 54 years old and had been serving for 27 years – over half of his life. He had actually been injured before in the line of duty, yet he still kept serving, finding that keeping us safe was more important than his personal safety – not something many of us can say.

After he was shot, the house caught on fire, most likely from the murderer, and they’re not sure where the murderer is now. He might have committed suicide by burning to death (and would still be burning in hell) or he escaped.

It frustrates me with all the hatred toward police officers because of misunderstood misrepresented incidents that the media explodes into a ginormous deal when it really wasn’t (usually) that big of deal. Yes, there are a few bad apples in the bunch, but there are bad apples everywhere. Even daycare teachers and the Catholic clergy have bad apples. Most times, there’s reasonable rationalization that preceded the video or story and you don’t see that in the media. They want you to think that it was the police officer’s fault and that they’re harming an innocent person. That couldn’t be more wrong. In the stories, you didn’t see the “violated” person trying to pull a gun on someone, trying to rob a convenience store, or selling drugs. I understand that some of the police officer’s go too far, but when the adrenaline is churning and, the criminal is resisting, the body’s first response is fight or flight. In these cases the body chooses fight and do whatever they can to keep others safe and keep themselves safe. Many civilians would handle the situation very similarly because of the loss of control over the body’s response.

I hope people will appreciate this officer and that the hatred towards police dies down. Thank you, and rest in peace, SWAT Officer Steven M. Smith.

Update: Officer Steve Smith's funeral was held today in Westerville, Ohio. Hundreds came.
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Old 04-20-2016, 02:01 AM View Post #2 (Link)
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Since you're posting this in the debate thread, I will reply. I don't mean this as a response to the death of Steve Smith, which was very tragic and unnecessary and not at all right.

In response to your question though, and not this incident in particular (because I don't think the two are that related): The officers that are receiving backlash are part of a larger, systemic problem that involves prejudice and brutality. Smith, on the other hand, was killed by someone who is mentally unstable, and this happened while he was legitimately carrying out a warrant.

It is not that people hate police officers. That is a generalization that is dangerous for any of us to make. It is that officers have a certain kind of power and authority, and in some cases, this power and authority has been abused in a way that suggests racial undertones. It is, again, the larger societal problem of misrecognition and stereotyping that is being targeted and less so the profession of being a police officer.

In your post, you suggest that there is a "reasonable rationalization" behind these incidents, and I think the uproar is that, in fact, the public sees no rational reason for it happening. To say that these mistreated victims pulled a gun on someone, robbed a convenience store, or were selling drugs outside of the shown evidence is really just assuming so. And that is the root of the problem, especially as the argument is that these assumptions are racially driven.

I don't think "flight or fight" responses are necessarily a good excuse, especially for someone trained to protect in stressful situations. But again, I think the problem comes more from power + racism, and that is a problem that affects not only police officers but other people in power as well.
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Old 04-21-2016, 07:08 PM View Post #3 (Link)
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Originally Posted by Raconteur View Post
the public sees no rational reason for it happening. To say that these mistreated victims pulled a gun on someone, robbed a convenience store, or were selling drugs outside of the shown evidence is really just assuming so. And that is the root of the problem, especially as the argument is that these assumptions are racially driven.

I don't think "flight or fight" responses are necessarily a good excuse, especially for someone trained to protect in stressful situations. But again, I think the problem comes more from power + racism, and that is a problem that affects not only police officers but other people in power as well.
You're right, the public does not see any rational reason. This is because the media does not show anywhere near the full story on what really happened. They make it look like the police officer just tackles an innocent person for no reason. This is ridiculous. The media doesn't show the full story and they make it seem like the police officer is the big, bad guy. Why do they do this? To attract attention to their sites, channels, magazines, etc. - not because they didn't know the full story. Media has this thing where they put a "spin" on things. It's literally part of their lingo - to put a "spin" on something. It can be a personal spin among other spins and they like to play the "poor victim" or the "outrageous" or the "fire people up" spins in their stories. My dad has many connections in the police world and he will find out what really happened whether talking to his friends on a different department, reading the FOP newsletter sent to police, or talking to the offensive officer personally. I wasn't assuming. At all. Thanks to my dad, I find out what really happened versus what kids say in school or what you read online or see in the news. I wouldn't write that if I didn't know.

"Fight or flight" responses are a very credible point - ask any officer who's gone through difficult situations. Why would they be trained. as you say, to harness their reactions and adrenaline, if it wasn't an issue. You don't train a librarian Jujitsu as part of their job training, do you? They are trained because it's an issue, and that's why my dad is required to spend weekends at training facilities to learn to control their natural response. It very well is a natural response. Officers are risking their lives and when things get out of hand, they don't know if they're fighting for their own life, and your body's adrenaline is going, you're trying not to get hurt, your heart is racing past the healthy zone, your blood pressure is higher than a skyscraper - what I'm saying is yes, it is a natural response. It's part of our biological survival instinct. This is why officer's train to control it, though it is extremely hard. It's hard to even teach it in the first place, but learn it, too?
The hate is real. Why would there be protests and riots where people are literally yelling "I hate the fuzz!" on the news?

Please know I'm not yelling at you, or mad or disgusted at you or something. I just want to get those points across clearer. Thank you for responding.
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Old 04-21-2016, 07:39 PM View Post #4 (Link)
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So, when things like that happen, people don't hate the cops. Were there anti-cop rallies in Westerville following?

People hate the cops when their friends and families are killed by cops for no reason, for bad reasons, or for reasons they don't know. People hate the cops when suspects disappear to secret detention sites where they may be "abused, kept off the books and denied access to attorneys". People hate the cops when a young girl dies in police custody and "no cause of death" is written on her death certificate. People hate cops when swat raids lead to the deaths of children and other innocents. People hate cops when cops kill the unarmed. This becomes racial when a black man is five times more likely to be killed by a cop than a white man of the same age. The big new stories tend to be somewhat debatable-- cases where the motives of both victim and cop are questionable, cases where the fight-or-flight response is invoked, and it becomes he-said she-said cop vs. the world. That's why they go to trial and make big stories. But even if we ignore those stories, there are others. Even if we assume that those cops were all in the right, it doesn't explain Homen Square or SWAT raid casualties.

Does that mean that all cops are evil and the protesters are right? Hell no. I live in a small town in Ohio and we love (most of) our cops. But I cannot believe that all cops are saintly, either. There are bad cops and good cops; there are corrupt departments and departments who serve the community. You and I both live in towns where the departments serve the community-- lucky us. But we can't assume that the same is true everywhere.
  
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Old 04-22-2016, 06:32 AM View Post #5 (Link)
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Your father sounds like a good guy. And probably a lot of the cops he's associated with are good cops. But, I'm sorry - the fact that your dad is a SWAT officer doesn't qualify as evidence for the statements you made. You really can't, and shouldn't, throw around statements of robberies, drug deals, and so on, unless you can provide concrete proof. Your dad may have connections, but that statement doesn't mean much to me here in this conversation. Whatever you've talked about, or whatever he's told you, is not part of my information.

Maybe this makes you believe you have the "real" story and I have a sensationalized media version, but the media does release footage. There are eye witnesses in a lot of these cases, as well. Many times, the victim has surrendered, or is overwhelmed by more than one officer, or is unarmed like mentioned previously. These are not the cases of fight or flight.

Thus far, we haven't been talking about one specific case in this thread (save lalodragon's post), so for you to say you know there was a drug deal, or robbery, or whatever else just can't be true. Whatever position you or your family is in, I have a hard time believing you when say you know the details of every controversial item that has been in the news. The information presented under that argument is as unreliable as what you're saying of the media.
  
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Old 04-22-2016, 06:58 AM View Post #6 (Link)
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Originally Posted by MYAnna_M View Post
Yes, there are a few bad apples in the bunch, but there are bad apples everywhere. Even daycare teachers and the Catholic clergy have bad apples.
I know that this is the wrong thing to fixate on, but I laughed at this example, as if overwhelming public opinion isn't that the Catholic church has committed major atrocities.
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Old 04-22-2016, 06:40 PM View Post #7 (Link)
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There's been stories of Catholic priests raping girls and such, but yeah, it might not be that well known.
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Old 04-22-2016, 06:54 PM View Post #8 (Link)
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Actually, the case here is different but in other countries (like mine) the police is corrupt and the rich man can get away with murders and the politicians AAHHHHH. The poor people can be punished for no reason also, why? he can't afford to bribe the courts and police and so they hate them.
For the slightest of work, we need to pay for no reason and need a lot of approach.
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Old 04-22-2016, 09:59 PM View Post #9 (Link)
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Originally Posted by MYAnna_M View Post
There's been stories of Catholic priests raping girls and such, but yeah, it might not be that well known.
The stereotypical view of the Catholic church is a bunch of oppressive kiddy-diddlers (not just little girls, but stereotypically little boys). Even if people don't view them with that lens, the crimes some of their members have committed are fairly well known. Like, a film about this just won the Best Picture award at the Academy Awards. In future, don't use them as your example of "bad apples" that don't get any flak.

Since I've done you a disservice derailing this thread, I'll actually address some of the relevant points.

It frustrates me with all the hatred toward police officers because of misunderstood misrepresented incidents that the media explodes into a ginormous deal when it really wasn’t (usually) that big of deal.
I think it's important to mark a difference between "little incidents" and "big incidents" (let's call them). I don't disagree with you--there are certainly people out there who hate the police no matter what they do. This story caught news in the city I went to university in, a few years ago. You might like it.

This is what I'll refer to as "little incidents." I.E events that didn't really cause ripples, but maybe made the news. Of course that officer has to arrest that woman--she presumabely has committed a crime that warrants arrest, and he's obligated to arrest her in case she's a danger to herself or--more importantly--other people. The people filming and yelling things like "let that poor girl go" or "no excuses" simply put have no idea what they're talking about. That woman could be like the man you talk about in your anecdote. He can't just let her go and say "whoops, I'm on film, go murder someone and burn a house down now."

In this, again, I don't disagree with you, but I think msot people wouldn't disagree with you. Other than people with very anarchist views (my brother hates police, and threatened to disown me when I told him I wanted to become a police officer, for example) most people, I think, would see something like that and say "yeah, that's reasonable." Arrests are never going to be pretty, assailants probably won't cooperate, and force should be allowed to police officers.

At the same time, Police officers should be accountable for their actions, which is where "big incidents" come into play. These are the things where people really start to re-examine the power given to the police, and the people that are holding that power. Shooting an unarmed teenager. Having some sort of racial bias when it comes to arrests. That kind of thing. While police officers should, I think, have more power to enforce the law, there should still be systems in place that control them, and it's when these systems are circumvented or non-existant that people get really angry at the police, on a "big incident" scale.

The case you described is a small incident (I don't mean that in a patronizing way). I don't think anyone of sane mind would hear the story of Officer Smith and think "wow, that officer was in the wrong." But I suspect you know that, and you're more using the emotions and grief you're experiencing as a jumping-off point to address another issue that you are concerned with.

In the stories, you didn’t see the “violated” person trying to pull a gun on someone, trying to rob a convenience store, or selling drugs
While I also acknowledge that often the media shapes or inflates things to their liking, and often out of context, it's also important to note that we don't know if this is the case. Just as blindly trusting the media when they tell you what happened is misguided, so too, I think, would be always believing the police officer reacted as they should. There isn't necessarily a gun involved.

In the case of robbery and selling drugs, a police officer's first duty is to make an arrest, not to kill someone. If people are killed for every robbery or drug bust that happens, then the police are going to rack up quite the body count. Now, escalation does happen, but generally police authority is enough to control a situation like that (it's when the perp panics and escalates, or chooses to fight, that the situation changes). If a perp runs, the officer has to try and chase them down first. If this fails, and the officer has no other choice, they must give warning before firing.

I understand that some of the police officer’s go too far, but when the adrenaline is churning and, the criminal is resisting, the body’s first response is fight or flight. In these cases the body chooses fight and do whatever they can to keep others safe and keep themselves safe. Many civilians would handle the situation very similarly because of the loss of control over the body’s response.
The problem I have with this is that a police officer's training is specifically designed to eliminate this response. The whole point is so that, when the adrenaline is churning, the officer is still able to make calculated, intelligent decisions. It's not supposed to come down to fight or flight, because that's when people get shot. It's supposed to come down to an officer maintaining control of a situation by instincts pounded into them by training. Now, obviously, that's not always possible and fights do happen, but even then an officer has to maintain a cool head.

They're not supposed to react like civilians. They're supposed to react like cops.

EDIT: After reading your later post, I see you already understand this, but I'd really like to reiterate that the men with guns are not supposed to react like civilians.

My dad has many connections in the police world and he will find out what really happened whether talking to his friends on a different department, reading the FOP newsletter sent to police, or talking to the offensive officer personally. I wasn't assuming. At all. Thanks to my dad, I find out what really happened versus what kids say in school or what you read online or see in the news. I wouldn't write that if I didn't know.
While I don't want to sound like I'm personally attacking you, your father, or his contacts, please remember that, just as the media has a "spin" or "bias" so too do the people your father is talking to. I generally agree with you, that the media spins things for their story to get people reading, but ask yourself: would police officers openly admit that an officer had shot an unarmed person without cause, for example? Probably not, right?

Let's invent Officer Bob, who's been on the force for thirty years, always supports the other officers, has a wife and two kids at home, has had you over for his annual pig roast, is always belting out Queen in the morning (much to everyone else's annoyance) and attended your wedding. Let's say one day Officer Bob shoots an unarmed teenager. Suddenly the media is an uproar because Officer Bob killed a kid. Someone comes up to you, someone you know well and trust, and asks you what really happened with Officer Bob. Do you say "Officer Bob shot that kid without cause." Or do you spin it to protect Officer Bob, who's been on the force for thirty years, convinced you not to leave your wife when you were going through a rough patch, and built your daughter her first crib. You probably do what you can to protect your friend, right?

Let's take a step back now. Who are you, even? Another officer it sounds like. But were you at the scene of the crime? Did you see what happened yourself, or are you getting the story through secondhand sources of your own? Do you know if Officer Bob was thinking rationally, and had reason to believe the kid was dangerous? Do you know what was going through his head? If he knew he couldn't take the chance with the kid, or if he panicked?

I'm not here to debate the morality of this hypothetical situation, but I want it to illustrate my point, which is this: Cops are just as biased as anyone else, and just because a cop says there's more to the story, doesn't mean there is more to the story. Maybe they're defending a friend, or maybe they just don't know all that went down. Even the cop involved is biased. Officer Bob will do what he can to defend himself, and he likely was in a heightened state of adrenaline that the details are fuzzy for him anyway.

I believe you when you say the cops you know are good men and women. All the cops I know (albeit few) are good men and women too. I know they'd protect their friends, the other good men and women they know. That's why I wouldn't take their word at face value.

It sounds like you're getting your information from a source, that's getting it from another source, that's probably getting it from another source or two. While that doesn't instantly negate anything you hear, you should understand how flimsy that sounds. You can say you know these things for a fact all you want, but at the end of the day, it probably isn't true.

Please know I'm not yelling at you
Maybe don't bold your text for no other reason next time

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear that someone close to your family has died in such a tragic way, and I understand how this can make you angry about the way the media represents police officers. I do, largely, agree that public perception towards the police tends to be a bit too antagonistic (as with that video I linked earlier). But at the same time, I think it's important the police are scrutinized. "Who watches the watchmen," as they say.
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Old 12-19-2016, 04:22 PM View Post #10 (Link)
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It's very unfortunate about happened to your SWAT officer.I must also quickly mention that from where I stand and my own point of view,the topic and the incident so narrated are disjoint.
Hating cops or police officers is a worldwide craze that has encapsulated the minds and views of people so much that one begins to question the integrity of the force-thanks to the media.
However the case may be,especially in this part of the world where I live,police officers are known to be the major cause of chaos because of their constant practice of abuse of power,imposing in the affairs of people,unnecessary shootings and battery.
Such images so painted in the minds of people have gone a long way in corrupting the perception that there are a good number of good cops who take their duties and responsibilities serious and care very much about safeguarding lives and properties.
People are aware of these corrupt practices and are gradually getting accustomed to the fact that all cops are evil based on the character of a few dirty ones.
None the less very bad things happen in all works of life: from religious groups to corporate groups and the military.
People only remember there bad esperiences and the media preys on these accounts to make a living and also make face and name.
The media is politics in another dimension and they only sell what majority of the people want to read,watch or listen to.
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